pidgin.pot for 2.x.y branch - strings 174 & 175

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
8 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

pidgin.pot for 2.x.y branch - strings 174 & 175

TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar
 kompliant)
Hi all!

I'm KNTRO. I'm new to the Pidgin Translators' world; :) I'll be working on the Argentine Spanish locale from now on.

I've began localizing Pidgin to this locale and I've found some stuff I want to make it clear. Sorry if what I'm asking you was talked before.

Thing is — I'm working currently on the pidgin.pot for 2.x.y branch and I found this in strings 174 & 175:

String 174:
%s is not a valid message class. See '/help msgcolor' for valid message classes.

String 175:
%s is not a valid color. See '/help msgcolor' for valid colors.

In both cases says See '/help msgcolor' but the string 174 it's about valid message class, not about valid colors. Is string 174 correct?

Thank you very much in advance.

--
TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar kompliant)
Ante la necesidad vulgar de una moraleja, puedo decir que siempre es preferible el que mata por despecho al que mata por ideología. Los meros criminales pueden arrepentirse, los que matan en nombre de unas convicciones son irredimibles. Un malandra es menos peligroso que un fanático.
— Alejandro Dolina.


_______________________________________________
Translators mailing list
[hidden email]
https://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/translators
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: pidgin.pot for 2.x.y branch - strings 174 & 175

Piotr Drąg
2014-05-23 3:28 GMT+02:00 TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich)
(Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar kompliant) <[hidden email]>:

> Thing is — I'm working currently on the pidgin.pot for 2.x.y branch and I
> found this in strings 174 & 175:
>
> ■String 174:
> %s is not a valid message class. See '/help msgcolor' for valid message
> classes.
>
> ■String 175:
> %s is not a valid color. See '/help msgcolor' for valid colors.
>
> In both cases says See '/help msgcolor' but the string 174 it's about valid
> message class, not about valid colors. Is string 174 correct?
>

It is indeed a bug. Could you please report it to the developers by
filing a ticket on Pidgin's bug tracking system? They (and us
translators) would really appreciate that! Please let us know if you
have any problems with it, and don't ever hesitate reporting bugs. :)

You can register and file a ticket here: https://developer.pidgin.im/newticket

> I'm KNTRO. I'm new to the Pidgin Translators' world; :) I'll be working on
> the Argentine Spanish locale from now on.
>

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is the reason for a
separate locale for Argentinian Spanish? Every other free
software/open source project I know of has only one Spanish
translation and one Spanish translation team. I wonder if it is
necessary for Pidgin to have more.

Best regards,

--
Piotr Drąg
http://raven.fedorapeople.org/
_______________________________________________
Translators mailing list
[hidden email]
https://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/translators
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: pidgin.pot for 2.x.y branch - strings 174 & 175

Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña-2
In reply to this post by TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar kompliant)
On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 10:28:24PM -0300, TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar kompliant) wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> I'm KNTRO. I'm new to the Pidgin Translators' world; :) I'll be working on
> the *Argentine Spanish* locale from now on.

If you are going to work in a Spanish locale, shouldn't it be best if you
based you translation on the existing Spanish translation.

I think It might be easier to maintain a diff to the existing translation than to
start up a translation from scratch.

Best regards

Javier

_______________________________________________
Translators mailing list
[hidden email]
https://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/translators

signature.asc (180 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: pidgin.pot for 2.x.y branch - strings 174 & 175

Ethan Blanton-3
In reply to this post by Piotr Drąg
Piotr Drąg spake unto us the following wisdom:
> > I'm KNTRO. I'm new to the Pidgin Translators' world; :) I'll be working on
> > the Argentine Spanish locale from now on.
>
> I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is the reason for a
> separate locale for Argentinian Spanish? Every other free
> software/open source project I know of has only one Spanish
> translation and one Spanish translation team. I wonder if it is
> necessary for Pidgin to have more.

There are 18 dialects of Spanish on my Debian 7 machine.  es_AR is
among them.  I'm actually rather surprised to learn that Pidgin has no
es_MX.

In general, this is an issue that appears to be of more concern to
dialectic speakers than speakers of the most common variant of the
language (where common may be defined as "in free software" in many
cases, rather than total number of worldwide speakers).  Maintaining N
translations is approximately the same amount of work as N+1
translations, so there's no reason to refuse to add such a
translation.

(Take the example of the Australian translator who replied here; much
 or most Free software is in en_US.  I speak en_US.  When I see
 software using British [mis]spellings, I do *notice* it, but I sure
 don't care.  I can't speak for all en_US speakers, but I think this
 is the overwhelming consensus.  However, *many* en_GB and en_AU users
 have expressed desire to have native translations.  At the end of the
 day, it doesn't cost us anything, so why not?  Pidgin has en_AU, en_CA,
 and en_GB translations.  The en_CA file contains 47 changed strings,
 mostly relating to color/colour-type changes.)

There is some danger when a dialectic translation becomes
unmaintained, where usage of the primary translation in favor of the
rotting dialect would be superior but the software developers don't
know, but this has not proven to be a huge deal in the past.  We have
seen it, however.

Ethan
_______________________________________________
Translators mailing list
[hidden email]
https://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/translators
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: pidgin.pot for 2.x.y branch - strings 174 & 175

Richard Laager
In reply to this post by TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar kompliant)
On Thu, 2014-05-22 at 22:28 -0300, TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75
Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar kompliant) wrote:
> In both cases says See '/help msgcolor' but the string 174 it's about
> valid message class, not about valid colors. Is string 174 correct?

Yes, the help text for msgcolor covers both classes and colors.
Apparently the msgcolor command sets a particular color for a particular
class of messages. (I don't use Finch, but I looked at the source code a
bit to answer your question.)

--
Richard

_______________________________________________
Translators mailing list
[hidden email]
https://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/translators

signature.asc (205 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

pidgin.pot for 2.x.y branch - strings 174 & 175

TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar
 kompliant)
In reply to this post by Piotr Drąg
Hi all!

On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Piotr Drąg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is the reason for a
separate locale for Argentinian Spanish?

On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you are going to work in a Spanish locale, shouldn't it be best if you
based you translation on the existing Spanish translation.

I think It might be easier to maintain a diff to the existing translation than to
start up a translation from scratch.

Piotr & Javier,

Basically there's 2 reasons: First, the Pidgin's es locale is a mess, no offense. Secondly, es_AR is very different from any other Spanish locale.

So this is the story: if one would be somebody that doesn't understand a bit about Spanish language stuff, I'd begin telling that buddy there's basically 2 different Spanish "branches", let's say — The Spaniard and the Latin American one. Spanish (Spain) has a different treatment, as in speech as in texts. This different treatment is bigger in informal ways, as in formal modes differences are less. So, I'm assuming you ask people to localize Pidgin in an informal/familiar way, not pure slang nor totally serious & polite, right? If that's correct, so, yes, differences between Europe's Spanish & Latin America's Spanish are big. That's not the end of story though.

Now let's zoom in Spanish speaking Latin America only. There's a few differences between Mexico's Spanish and all the way down till Bolivia. However when you are in Argentina, all the Spanish you have learned is less than useless.  Argentine Spanish has a different way of conjugating verbs and subject pronouns change as well [ & vosotros are Spanish (Spain) for you —second person, singular & plural pronouns respectively—, while vos & ustedes are Spanish (Argentina) for you —second person, singular & plural pronouns respectively—. From that point on everything changes, as actions have a different spelling. For instance: You think is Tú piensas in Spain & most Latin American countries, but in Argentina it's Vos pensás. This is just a silly example — diffs are deeper: Spanish (Argentina) has a lot of slang within itself. And this is something inescapable, it's part of the Argentine Spanish and its own roots. You will want to have a look at ¡Che, boludo! book if interested to know more about Argentina's Spanish. 

About other free software / open source projects' translations, actually all Mozilla's products have their own es-AR locale — I'm the Mozilla's es-AR Team QA Leader.

As Pidgin as Mozilla's products are a step forward from other languages projects— They are more about locales than just "translations". Let's take a look at Pidgin's case: 3 English locales —Australian, British & Canadian—, 2 Portuguese locales —European & Brazilian— & 3 Chinese locales —Simplified, Traditional & Hong Kong's. I'm even missing a SouthAfrican English locale as well as an Indian English one.

So why not another Spanish locale, being Spanish the 3rd most used language in Internet? Also, Spanish will be likely the next universal language in the near future, just like English is today. And localization is the future of translations — I'm pretty sure of these.

I can handle this, as I've already finished locales from a few websites —Netvibes, webcams.travel, Lookr— and some other software —AIMP and a bunch of add-ons for both Mozilla Firefox & Mozilla Thunderbird—. Anyway I've already told Richard I can finish the es locale if its original author agrees — The es locale is just a bit outdated/incomplete and I'd do the remaining strings in a sort of "generic Spanish" rather than in an Argentine way. I won't lie to you — I don't like the Pidgin's current es locale, but I will respect the way its author did the job.

I'd speak more deeply but I think Ethan's words are very much wise than all I can say — It's dead clear he's got a huge experience and he knows this universe much better than I do.

If any of you still has questions, we can keep these "thoughts exchange", if wished.

Sorry for being offtopic — Original subject is about these 2 strings in the Pidgin's 2.x.y branch. BTW, I've localized 12% of it so far.


On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Richard Laager <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 2014-05-22 at 22:28 -0300, TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75
Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar kompliant) wrote:
> In both cases says See '/help msgcolor' but the string 174 it's about
> valid message class, not about valid colors. Is string 174 correct?

Yes, the help text for msgcolor covers both classes and colors.
Apparently the msgcolor command sets a particular color for a particular
class of messages. (I don't use Finch, but I looked at the source code a
bit to answer your question.)

Richard,

So should I consider this a bug and file a ticket or shouldn't I?

Thank ALL!

--
TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar kompliant)
Ante la necesidad vulgar de una moraleja, puedo decir que siempre es preferible el que mata por despecho al que mata por ideología. Los meros criminales pueden arrepentirse, los que matan en nombre de unas convicciones son irredimibles. Un malandra es menos peligroso que un fanático.
— Alejandro Dolina.


_______________________________________________
Translators mailing list
[hidden email]
https://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/translators
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: pidgin.pot for 2.x.y branch - strings 174 & 175

Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña-2

First of all please let me start by saying this: I don't oppose to something
working on an alternative Spanish locale.  If you want to do it, go for it.

However, my experience with translation in Free Software projects (which
started in 2001) and working with many colleagues from Latin America is that
it is typically best to have a "neutral" translation into Spanish (i.e. 'es')
than to have many divergent locales (i.e. 'es_ES', 'es_AR', 'es_MX').

I have been coordinating the Debian Spanish Translation Project for more than
10 years now. The project translator's (from different countries) have agreed
to a common base we can all understand and relate to.

At any case, if a derivative locale is created, I would suggest to base it
off the existing one and manage it as a "differences" file rather than a
completely new translation.

That way:
  - bug fixes are shared

  - translations that can be shared *are* shared, preventing duplicate work

  - the public benefitting reviewing the translation (all Spanish speakers as opposed
    to

But this is just an opinion, you can manage it however you see it fit.


On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 08:34:45AM -0300, TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar kompliant) wrote:
> Basically there's 2 reasons: First, the Pidgin's *es* locale is a mess, no
> offense. Secondly, *es_AR* is very different from any other Spanish locale.

Well, for someone that has been translating this program for *12* years,
it's hard to take no offense when you say something "is a mess" and don't
produce arguments to support it.

I would like to know where you believe the problem is:

 - is it because the content out of date? Yes, it might be.  I do not keep
   the content fully up-to-date with all new developments, I usually wait for
   a "string freeze" to happen and then work on that target.

   From past experience Pidgin is a "moving" target with a lot of development
   (specially on plugins) and its my experience that it is best for this to
   finalise and get ready to a release before translating.

   That is not to say that I have not missed some string freezes, sometimes
   Real Life (TM) gets in the way.
   
   Also, it looks like there has not been a string freeze call since 2.7.11
   (or I don't find it in my mailbox) and I have missed the last releases.

 - is the content incorrect/improper/wrong? I have not received bug reports
   (either direclty or by those being reoprted through Pidgin's bug tracker)
   so I am inclined to think it's not the case.


Regardless of what road you want to take (start a translation from scratch,
or use the existing Spanish translation) I would really appreciate if you
send me the things that, in the existing Spanish (es) translation are wrong.

Since the Spanish translation is out of date (3727 translated messages, 71
fuzzy translations, 20 untranslated messages), I'm going I will start working
updating it. If you send me the comments by email I can review the msgids you
might  have issues with.

Regards

Javier

_______________________________________________
Translators mailing list
[hidden email]
https://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/translators

signature.asc (180 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: pidgin.pot for 2.x.y branch - strings 174 & 175

TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar
 kompliant)
On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña <[hidden email]> wrote:
First of all please let me start by saying this: I don't oppose to something
working on an alternative Spanish locale.  If you want to do it, go for it.

However, my experience with translation in Free Software projects (which
started in 2001) and working with many colleagues from Latin America is that
it is typically best to have a "neutral" translation into Spanish (i.e. 'es')
than to have many divergent locales (i.e. 'es_ES', 'es_AR', 'es_MX').

I have been coordinating the Debian Spanish Translation Project for more than
10 years now. The project translator's (from different countries) have agreed
to a common base we can all understand and relate to.

I'm afraid I disagree with this.

As I said before, localization is the future of translations. There's not just one "Worldwide English", one "Worldwide French" & one "Worldwide Spanish" for everyone. Even German has its own "divergent locales" for Germany, Austria, Swiss, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, etc. Difference there are really a few, but there are.

Go to Australia and ask people to talk as if they were in Los Ángeles, go to Great Britain and ask people to talk in a New York fashion.

So what's the sense of "worldwidecovering" a language and ignore real differences between them?

OK, let's forget about other languages and let's focus on Spanish now. A "neutral" Spanish's never gonna work in Argentina. As I said before, we have a different way of conjugating verbs and we use a few different personal pronouns. This is a purely "Argentine version" of Spanish language and it's heavily used down here but it's also used in Uruguay, Paraguay, Southeast Brazil and partially used in Bolivia and Chile. This is known as español rioplatense.

In my opinion, have a "neutral", simplified language is not typically best but typically faster and typically easier, especially if we're talking about huge pieces of software, like an OS. I prefer the long, hard way instead.

 
At any case, if a derivative locale is created, I would suggest to base it
off the existing one and manage it as a "differences" file rather than a
completely new translation.

Thanks but I think I don't need this. If I would have believed that the current Spanish translation of Pidgin was good enough, I'd hardly have thought about beginning a new locale by myself. I told Richard in private I can't believe nobody hasn't complaint about this translation but coming to think now, I think it's being like this because most Pidgin users in Spanish don't realize about some mistranslations, or are too lazy to report a bug. :P Or perhaps they can't even write in English — most people in Latin America can't speak English and as a matter of fact, you realize my English is far away from being perfect when trying to explain things. :D
 
That way:
  - bug fixes are shared

You should ask someone to review the Spanish translation instead.
 
  - translations that can be shared *are* shared, preventing duplicate work

Since it's my own effort, I prefer to take this by my own. I won't be duplicating anyone else's work, except a little bit for Pidgin's translation/localizations managers.
 
  - the public benefitting reviewing the translation (all Spanish speakers as opposed
    to

Sorry, didn't understand this one, as this sentence isn't complete, I think.
 
But this is just an opinion, you can manage it however you see it fit.

Sure! Thank you for sharing your thoughts anyway.
 
On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 08:34:45AM -0300, TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar kompliant) wrote:
> Basically there's 2 reasons: First, the Pidgin's *es* locale is a mess, no
> offense. Secondly, *es_AR* is very different from any other Spanish locale.

Well, for someone that has been translating this program for *12* years,
it's hard to take no offense when you say something "is a mess" and don't
produce arguments to support it.

Are you the head behind the Spanish translation? If yes, hey, nice to meet ya!

I do apologize if I offended you but you have to know that's my true opinion — I'm brutally honest. :P

I repeat: this Spanish translation does needs a deep review. I know everybody hates doing this since it takes too much time and results may be so damn small than no one finds differences after hours of hard work, but it's precisely here where things can be enhanced, i.e., in the smallest things. Probably these small things have grown through those 12 years and now it's one uniform mess. Probably this translation's be done by some people with different styles and no solid guideline. I just don't know.

Anyway, I won't go into details here not now. But once I finish the es_AR locale, you're gonna know these details. My target is to get this locale done within the next 30 days so you probably get these details from me after the World Cup ends. ;)

 
I would like to know where you believe the problem is:

 - is it because the content out of date? Yes, it might be.  I do not keep
   the content fully up-to-date with all new developments, I usually wait for
   a "string freeze" to happen and then work on that target.

Nah, that's not a big issue. Especially Pidgin's Spanish translation right now, which has just a few untranslated strings. You can solve that in less than an hour.
 
  - is the content incorrect/improper/wrong? I have not received bug reports
   (either direclty or by those being reoprted through Pidgin's bug tracker)
   so I am inclined to think it's not the case.

It is actually. But as I said above, people may be lazy about reporting bugs. Or they don't know how to.

Regardless of what road you want to take (start a translation from scratch,
or use the existing Spanish translation) I would really appreciate if you
send me the things that, in the existing Spanish (es) translation are wrong.

I promise you I will. You got my word on this. ;) Then you can consider whether it worth updating strings or if it doesn't.

Just tell me how do you prefer to receive this: one big email to the translators' mailing list or small emails sent to you only?

Best,

--
TSK! | KNTRO (MindBuildingx/1.75 Greenwich) (Darktech/4.75 Gibraltar kompliant)
Ante la necesidad vulgar de una moraleja, puedo decir que siempre es preferible el que mata por despecho al que mata por ideología. Los meros criminales pueden arrepentirse, los que matan en nombre de unas convicciones son irredimibles. Un malandra es menos peligroso que un fanático.
— Alejandro Dolina.


_______________________________________________
Translators mailing list
[hidden email]
https://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/translators